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Talk:Angel
Concerning recent edits: *Angiris Council: It has its own page which lists the individuals, and those individuals have their own articles. I think it's stretching things too much to do the same for this page as far as listing goes. *Given Fallen Angels their own page. The info available is enough to justify its own page, and given the existence of Corrupted Angel enemies in D3, and Reaper angels in RoS, there's room for even more expansion. *Seraphiem...I'm inclined to think they're separate. I'll have to go over the D1 manual again, but Heroes of the Storm indicates that they're separate from regular angels.--Hawki (talk) 08:28, March 28, 2014 (UTC) :Going over the D1 manual, it's phrased like they're one and the same. HotS kinda suggests that they're different, but in the manual, Inarius is mentioned as a seraphim, and he's always appeared with standard angel physiology. For now, treating them as same, but made notes in trivia section.--Hawki (talk) 13:16, April 6, 2014 (UTC) ::I would assume they are somewhat based on the seraphim of the speculative Christian angelic hierarchies. These classify the seraphim as the highest rank of angel. Of course, they also say archangel(s) are a lower rank than seraphim, while in the Diablo universe, archangels seem to be higher. Nevertheless, my guess would be that seraphim is a rank, probably one of the highest possible ranks, of angels. [[user:tephra|◄► Tephra ◄►]] 17:49, April 6, 2014 (UTC) :::That could make sense. If "seraph" refers to rank rather than some kind of physical distinction, then it makes sense for characters such as Inarius and Tyrael. I'll give it another look at some point.--Hawki (talk) 21:46, April 6, 2014 (UTC) ::::Going over Hephasto's flavor text, it's again implied that Serephim are indeed different angels, namely "when the Serephim who followed the Angel Inarius..." (definitely not being treated as synonyms there). Don't have time for more edits right now, but unless there's any objections, I'm inclined to create a separate serephim page.--Hawki (talk) 22:36, June 26, 2014 (UTC) :::::Maybe for now, it's enough to just state that Seraphim may be different? There won't be a lot on a separate page anyway. Pryamus (talk) 22:37, June 26, 2014 (UTC) ::::::It already states seraphim may be different, but it's reached the point where I think it needs to cover it separately. That, and not only can it list individual seraphim (Izual, Hephasto), but the page needs a list of angelic orders (e.g. Heavenly Host) and types (e.g. Sicarai). Seraphim can fit right in there.--Hawki (talk) 23:46, June 26, 2014 (UTC) Citation/RoS Where abouts in RoS does Tyrael make the request to Imperius? It's been stated in dev interviews that Heaven was divided on how to respond, but I don't recall a section in the game where the request is made, only where Imperius states he'll aid the hero himself.--Hawki (talk) 06:57, April 6, 2014 (UTC) :Removed.--Hawki (talk) 13:16, April 6, 2014 (UTC) Physiology Per some recent edits: *Cutting down a bit on the whole face thing. If angel faces are said to absorb light, it certainly isn't stated in the sources provided. Likewise, I could swear it's stated in one of the novels that angel faces do have details but are unpercievable by mortals (and if they did see them they'd go blind) but until I find the actual source (if it even exists), it can't be added. *The whole 'tied to weapons' thing is entering iffy territory. The listed items/weapons only apply to the Angiris Council, and there's been little sign of adverse effects from separation - Imperius casually reforged Solarion and never suffered a special detriment after it was broken, Malthael had no problem leaving Chalad'ar behind, etc. El'druin is tied to Tyrael, but that's something that applies to El'druin itself, in unique (mortal) circumstances, and is outright stated to be a unique weapon with unique properties in BoC (along with the whole 'tied to Tyrael' thing from blue posts). With it explicitly stated that Tyrael is the only angel to have ever become mortal, there's not really enough evidence to say that every angel would be in a similar predicament (memory loss before retrieving their weapon/item, and again, said weapons/items only tie in with the AC).--Hawki (talk) 01:41, April 27, 2014 (UTC) :::: I agree, although I actually was referring to Izual, who (according to Tyrael) lost his angelic powers after being separated from Azurewrath, see Diablo II quest dialogue. It may be a unique case as well, though. As of faces, it may be possible that facial features appear at the moment of angel-to-human transformation, but Tyrael had a nose (seen in the silouette) before his black (angelic) skin started to turn into human skin. The section about damage to be killed was added as it always seemed strange to me: the amount of physical harm that an angel can endure is not explained by any logical means. Tyrael surviving the Worldstone explosion (and he did survive it, and was 'reformed' in Pandemonium instead of dying) is the apotheosis of that. Overall, sorry if my edits were unclear or mistakening. Doing what I can to make DW better, but I am not perfect :) 02:09, April 27, 2014 (UTC), Pryamus More points: *For Izual, is that actually stated? The actual line is "though Izual no longer carries the Angelic Runeblade, Azurewrath, he may still possess great strength and power within his new form." Unless there's another line of note, I see this more as being a case of "Izual doesn't have a weapon, but he's still dangerous." Like I could say "I lost my gun, but I could still beat you to a pulp." Not that I own a gun or have any intention of attacking someone, but point is, the line doesn't seem to suggest any actual link between the two, only that Azurewrath was a powerful weapon in itself. *Concerning damage, I know what you mean, but I'm uneasy about adding it to the article because for the most part, angels have followed a pattern of "they bleed, they die." Angels in Wrath, Imperius's wound from Diablo, etc. Tyrael is an exception, but there's so many variables surrounding that exception - is it because of the Worldstone itself? Is it because El'druin itself wasn't shattered (picked by by Jacob before Tyrael reformed)? Are archangels just that durable? Did the Crystal Arch pull some kind of trick? I don't know. It's worth noting for Tyrael himself in his article (as in, "Tyrael was somehow able to reform"), but angels themselves are homogenized as far as their physiology goes. *Tyrael and the nose...you're right, he seems to have facial features relatively early on in the transformation, but thing is, the transformation is beginning before we see it - at least from the moment that he tears off his wings (not the catalyst, but established to be part of the process). So is the nose and stuff something shared by all angels, or had it just started to form by that point? Don't know. And it's very iffy to include IMO. Some things are unavoidable for spec (e.g. the Crystal Arch's reincarnation properties/lack of them were vaguely defined until Book of Tyrael, incorporated what was known at the time but there was no way around it), but since this is only Tyrael in unique circumstances, I'm iffy about incorporating it into the article in itself. However, I'm happy for it to go into the trivia section, as it's probably worth noting (similar to the whole seraphim thing...gah).--Hawki (talk) 02:26, April 27, 2014 (UTC) :::: I guess all of it can be just held back at the moment... Well, it was worth a try. Unfortunately, details of such processes are not something that Blizzard is known for sharing with: the target audience is supposed to perceive angels as 'enemy unknown' (or 'ally unknown'), not just another alien race. BTW, the physiology of angels seems to be very much like that of Protoss (or vice versa) - maybe this can go to trivia section? 02:41, April 27, 2014 (UTC), Pryamus :::::Um, how are they similar? Seriously, apart from being the 'formal race' of their respective settings, I don't really see any similarities, especially in physiology.--Hawki (talk) 06:42, April 27, 2014 (UTC) :::::::::Protoss are composed of light, psionic and sonic waves as well, have busty females without need to breastfeed, feed off sunlight (and moonlight), talk and hear without apparent mounts and ears etc. That's what I meant. Also compare Protoss and angelic armor/building design, all that stuff. To be honest, this thought came when I read a comment about 'angels, humans and demons in Diablo having relationships that are far from biblical, instead being closer to those of Protoss, Terran and Zerg'. 06:51, April 27, 2014 (UTC), Pryamus ::::::::::Protoss are still flesh and blood - they bleed, they have three hearts, etc. As for the rest, I don't think it's that noteworthy - the ability to speak without a mouth isn't exactly uncommon in sci-fi or fantasy. As for architecture, I wouldn't really say so. Angel architecture has shown itself to be uniform and Spartan (per Blizzard North's artstyle) or more 'flowing' and serene (per Blizzard Entertainment's), both drawing inspiration from Gothic architecture (to varying extents). Protoss architecture tends more towards a pyramidal style - Egyptian, Mayan, etc. ::::::::::Admittedly that's more just my opinion rather than hard facts, but IMO, the similarities are too sparse and/or generic to really warrant inclusion. However, it might be worth noting the existence of the hybrid destroyer from SC2, how it too has luminous bands of light on its back akin to how angels have wings in Diablo. Not that it ever uses them to fly admittedly.--Hawki (talk) 07:14, April 27, 2014 (UTC) :::::::::::::Upd: after reviewing the Reaper models, who are angels (not angels in mortal bodies), I can see that some of them actually have faces. Even Death Maidens (who are Reapers with black faces) have heads of humanoid shape, can be seen when they are casting. Also note Urzael who has skin, and his fiery model (not in-game portrait) shows some sort of facial features (although it is unclear what they are exactly: is it mouth, beard, or what?). Anarchs are also a very good shot, displaying eyeless mask-like faces with mouths and noses. So I guess angels are not all painted black everywhere, after all. One thing I cannot understand is why some angels in Reaper ranks are made of transparent matter, while others are of solid flesh. But at least this can make sense in terms of angels having the anatomy changeable at will. In the end, Inarius DID mate with Lilith, which would be hard should he be made purely of light.Pryamus (talk) 23:14, May 9, 2014 (UTC) (Getting back to left alignment): Per the above point, the Reapers, while including angels, aren't really indicative of angel physiology in themselves. Urzael is depicted as having a solid form for instance, but how much of that is due to whatever the heck Malthael did to them? It might be worth noting in the article, but not the spirit of "Reapers have x, so angels must too. If it's to be included, it would be best to give Reaper physiology a sub-section. As for Inarius and Lilith, their 'mating' didn't necessarily involve physical interaction. Sounds silly by our standards, but fantasy works on its own rules, said rules involve the apparent lack of sexual reproduction for angels and demons (Crystal Arch/Black Abyss). I wouldn't take the nephalem as proof that angels/demons have, er, certain reproductive organs. 0_0--Hawki (talk) 00:00, May 10, 2014 (UTC) : True. That's why all I add to the article is note on Reapers sometimes seen having skin. Everything else, I think, not even Blizzard knows for sure as of this moment.Pryamus (talk) 00:16, May 10, 2014 (UTC) One more thing on our favorite topic. We have the Angel Hair Braid, and we have Inarius having hair (see his portrait). Turns out our good angie buddies have hair after all. Tyrael's mortal form is not bald because of all angels being bald, it's just his personal luck of the draw. Pryamus (talk) 22:13, May 25, 2014 (UTC) :Inarius's portrait shows a tattered hood, not hair. As for the hair braid, I'm also iffy - is it saying it's made of angelic hair, or it's a hair braid that an angel possessed? IMO, the flavour text is vague on the issue. I've noted it in the trivia, but I don't think one can say that angels have hair. If they do, it calls everything else into question.--Hawki (talk) 22:40, May 25, 2014 (UTC) ::I'll concede that Inarius' picture does not necessarily prove he has hair, as it could be a wig or something, but that doesn't look even remotely like a tattered hood (maybe you're looking at a different picture?). The hair braid's description seems to sound more like it got its name based on its appearance, I don't think it could be said it is actually made from angel hair, or that angels wear it. This being said, I don't think one should say that angels have hair or that they don't. I'd probably side with the idea that they do, but I don't think concrete proof exists to support this opinion. [[user:tephra|◄► Tephra ◄►]] 22:50, May 25, 2014 (UTC) ::And I don't think there will be a proof anytime soon, just sharing thoughts, and in good faith I believe that this is more likely than unlikely. By the way, Death Maidens appear to have some sort of hair too. Pryamus (talk) 22:57, May 25, 2014 (UTC)